Curse

Silas Verdeii · Apr 12, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

one other thought i had, there aren't as many new skills in factions for the core professions as there was in GW:P, therefore once you do get the few skills that you can from quests(they said a few would be available) there won't be that many left to purchase so for merging characters, it's not as terrible as we're making out to be. with the experience you get from quests, accumulating the necissary 20-30skillpoints that you need will be relatively easy after completing quests only once, so at the end of the day, i think it'll balance out
and if it doesn't balance out and it really sucks for all of us, Anet will change it, they've changed things before, and will do it again when needed.

Cjlr · Apr 12, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

I don't see the logic behind it... Would you think that, the more skills more easily available, the easier it is to experiment with them? I would.

That said, it's not like making money is hard. You can earn about 1k/hour traipsing around in mid-to-high level areas with a full group of henchmen, for crying out loud. And doesn't the per-skill cost cap out at 1k?

So going with around 300 skills in factions, that's about 200-250k to unlock the ones that aren't quest rewards/starter skills (assuming you use multiple characters to do it, thereby lowering the average per-skill cost). I didn't actually do any of the maths, but it's probably kinda accurate.

Serious money to most people. Didn't they publish some data back in like, October that said the vast majority of people never had more than 20k most of the time? Then again, maybe they didn't. I don't feel like checking right now because the Simpsons is on TV...

Rey Lentless · Apr 12, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Why are people bitching about something based on a very small piece of information?

I can understand debating something on a guess, but to get overly pissed?

I think people are forgetting how prophecies actually worked. There were a lot of skill quests until you ascended, which was usually around the time you got to level 20. After that, there are none. This is balanced because you make very little gold on your way up to level 20 and you're lucky if you can afford to buy armor maybe 3 times along the way and break even. Once you get to the higher level areas, the loot is exponentially better, but you aren't getting free skills. You have expendable gold.

The next thing I don't think people understand is that UAS isn't for casual players. If you have no interest in farming, no interest in doing repeatable higher end content to make gold/exp, then that's your choice. UAS isn't required to enjoy the game or play pve. Your average character can do just fine casually playing and unlocking the skills they want to use. That isn't a grind, it's a choice people make on how many options they want to have. I don't understand why people think they should have EVERYTHING, by doing nothing extra.

Quote:

PvPer wont care that much at all since it wont be as hard for them to unlock those skills from the PvP component of the game w/o having to touch PvE at all. Perhaps with Factions, Anet is finally making the push to make their game more PvP focus even more obvious.

Skill points don't have a cap, and gold doesn't either (it does, but you can convert to ectos or whatever and bypass the cap). Faction certainly does however. PVE'ers will have a much greater head start on unlocking new content than pvpers will.

You people want to play casually, that's fine. You'll have a casual amount of skills. And considering what you actually NEED for pve, that's more than enough to do whatever you want.

Gaile Gray · Apr 12, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Hey, guys,

Just to make things a little more clear, and show you that what you're concerned about isn't a big deal. Honest! I'll try to make a spiffy bullet list. Oh dear heavens, I do love my bullet lists:

Character level progression will be faster.
Skill points are acquired more quickly.
What we are doing is simply empowering you to make more choices. Rather than handing off the same two skills to every person for each quest, you get choices.
There will be a greater variety of skills offered earlier in the game. We actually help to offset the cost of acquiring skills by rewarding you with an amount of gold that will help you towards the cost of acquiring the skills.
- This is an exciting thing, because when you run into someone, you won't be able to predict build from A to Z. What he chose may be different than what she selected. More variety, again, is a good thing.
- And for those interested in unlocking, each character can choose skills that were not unlocked on the last character, expanding options for the account as a whole.

There! Not only is that a vision of loveliness as a bullet list it's packed with good info, too!

Peewee · Apr 12, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

I remember a time when buying skills was far far cheaper. Then in a patch skills went from 100 gold per peice, to 1k. If they do make buying skills the predominant way, i would hope that they reduce the cost to balance it out. I am also concerned that ppl wont buy new skills as they wish to keep the price down until they find the really good skills. Thats no fun, all that happens is u find urslef playing the entire game without using any of the new skills. Basically, since skills are worth 1k a peice, and quests give you 2, perhaps ANET could make a 2k quest reward and give us 2 skill points into the bargain?

I am definetly unhappy about that particular proposal. I hate farming, and the thought of grinding for skills rather than just playing the game casually, really doesnt take me.

*Reads post above* Do i have an excuse for posting something that has been made redundant by the post above it? Erm, its late (actually is soo late its early) here, i am tired, probably best to ignore most of what i have said

*realises that Gaile's post came a mere 4 minutes before mine, and therefore my post, at least at the point i started writing, was not redundant. Which is good, cos it means that i wasnt so tired that i managed to miss an entire post. so, i am off the hook for being a fool and posting stuff that has just been answered. Now i am going to go to bed *collapses*

Lady Lozza · Apr 12, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Skill points are acquired more quickly.

I wonder if this means we will be seeing more skill points as rewards, or whether levelling our lvl20 characters will simply become easier.

LifeInfusion · Apr 12, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

damit. I play hardcore on 2 days of the week., Friday and Saturday. The rest of the days I read here and play 2-4 hours.

That means in factions I will have financing problems since I do NOT FARM. I am already disappointed with the people farming, whether for items, money, or skill points.

I cannot do quests that I want to do because all people do is spam "LF SS/SV", "LF 55er", "LFG for 5 man farming", or "LFG for farming" in the high level areas.

EDIT: Reference to Gaile Quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Character level progression will be faster.
Skill points are acquired more quickly.
you get choices.
variety of skills offered earlier; offset by rewarding gold

Gaile says there will be money rewards eh? That reminds me of the Divinity Coast Mission. I would love that.
Yeh, so if we cannot predict their skills, whose to say PUGs won't end up with monks that bring purge signet like the healer henchman in factions? "Caveat Emptor", right? Well, people don't always make rational decisions. We would like to think so, but no.

Really, although the skils acquisition was not liked, it was effective. Whenever people got new skills, they tested them (at least I did). Whatever was not to my liking I don't use. An example of unawareness is this:even after the AOE patch, you still see people (and henchmen like Orion and Cynn) using the skill Firestorm, effectively killing the group of people they are with.

What I'm trying to convey, simply put, is that there should be advice on people not splitting their attributes five ways. (You'd be surprised) Some people go "o look, I like skills from all these lines, so let's make a five way attribute split and use 3 superior runes to pump them up to 10+"!

Thallandor · Apr 12, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

I think the general misconception here is about skill points ( the need to grind for exp to get skill point-it has never been ever easier to do so in GW:P after introduction of scroll merchants/drops and now with Gaile post we will be getting exp even faster.) which are not the issue i am trying to address but more specifically gold needed to buy those skills/cap sigs and time i would use to grind for it which i would rather spend playing the game.

Please dont assume all players have 1000k and 500+ ectos stashed away. Having 20-30 skills you like a for a toon would easily translate into 120k worth of skills you will have to buy for 4 characters and this is not even considering secondaries.

We will be awarded gold that will help us get those skills? Though i dont think that is what is happening in general in GW:P with all the nerfage going now,though things may change in GW:F but if there is a way i can be able to get all the gold i need by playing casually for all of the 120+ skills (1k a piece) then i think sweatshop gold farmers are going be smiling from ear to ear.

Statements that say players dont need all skills aviable to them to play PvE is plain disgusting and goes to show the plain disregard of PvP players have for PvErs.

Edit for spelling

Zehnchu · Apr 12, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Not sure what you where hoping for all new skills for free? Since Factions is focused more towards ascend characters getting skill points shouldn’t be all that hard with high XP, and rewarding with gold will help.

But there is nothing stopping my Factions born characters going back to Ascalon and getting the quests to get the skills reward. I sure you can probably do that with Prophecies characters in Factions also, guess I’ll have to wait and see after the 27th if that can be done. That will at least cut down the cost on buying new skills since all my characters are toped out at 1k in buying new skills.

Thallandor · Apr 12, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

^ agreed Zehnchu, i am quite sure Faction borns (not sure if this terms will be used more often now) who ascend will be able to travel to tyria to get skill quest except the 2 extra attribute point quest in the desert but it is the Prophecies borns that i am unsure and am most concerned about. If both Chapter borns are locked from the skill quests from the other chapter then i wont be wasting 2 character slots and a extra storage to borther linking the two chapters.....asumming i am buying it if this is the case :P I dont assume skills to be free but there should be a way for players to get the skills they want by playing the game normally, GWP to GWF or the other way round without worrying the need to change their playstyle. Flexibility is the key.

The system Gaile posted i assume applies for new Faction borns rather than ascended Prophecies borns where instead of the usual 2 skills +exp reward which we get from skill quest, we will have a wider selection of skills to choose from eg maybe 5 and pick 2 which will result in players having a different array of skills as they progress into the game instead of the usual same skills per class for everyone. This sound nice and interesting but may pose within itself its own set of problems (self gimp) but that is another discussion altogther. However if Prophecies borns who ascended and travel to Cantha have access to those skill quest for not all but at least some new factions skills, then i will rest my case.

Rey Lentless · Apr 12, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

playing casually for all of the 120+ skills

I don't see that as realistic, even in this game where there really is no grind. Do you really think you should be able to unlock everything by playing casually?

Quote:

Statements that say players dont need all skills aviable to them to play PvE is plain disgusting and goes to show the plain disregard of PvP players have for PvErs.

I find it disgusting that people want everything from doing nothing. What fun is that? You don't need all skills.. if you want them, feel free to get them. It might take more time than 'casual' though, and I find that to be perfectly reasonable. PVPers don't need UAS either btw. There's a lot of skills you'll never see in any team trying to be competitive and the same applies to pve. You're confusing wants w/ needs, and you're also confusing yourself with the center of the universe. If you got everything handed to you so fast.. don't you think people who played more would get bored more quickly?

I think this is going to be a big improvement. There's a lot of skills that were found very late in the game that would have been nice to have earlier. You can build bars that fit more to what you're interested in, as opposed to just whatever the skill quests gave earlier. Some people may have bad bars, but should we prevent people from having more options because of that?

Thallandor · Apr 12, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

^ i think you got me confused i dont need to unlock skills for PvE and i am not really a causal player either.

blah blah blah stick and stones. Your post speaks for it self, since it is obvious you choose not see my concerns/read selectively and try to make it personal.

To have options is always good, flexibility is the key in all playstyles same is said for skills.

Edit: Edited wrong post blah

Renegade ++RIP++ · Apr 12, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hey, guys,

Just to make things a little more clear, and show you that what you're concerned about isn't a big deal. Honest! I'll try to make a spiffy bullet list. Oh dear heavens, I do love my bullet lists:

Character level progression will be faster.
Skill points are acquired more quickly.
What we are doing is simply empowering you to make more choices. Rather than handing off the same two skills to every person for each quest, you get choices.
There will be a greater variety of skills offered earlier in the game. We actually help to offset the cost of acquiring skills by rewarding you with an amount of gold that will help you towards the cost of acquiring the skills.
- This is an exciting thing, because when you run into someone, you won't be able to predict build from A to Z. What he chose may be different than what she selected. More variety, again, is a good thing.
- And for those interested in unlocking, each character can choose skills that were not unlocked on the last character, expanding options for the account as a whole.

There! Not only is that a vision of loveliness as a bullet list it's packed with good info, too!

so the result will be that in stead of more diversity people will just look online what will be the skills needed to farm a certain area and unlock those. Just as they did when pvp had to unlock skills through pve to pvp successfully.

This will not further diversity, but have an averse effect and in stead further cookie cutter builds since the casual player won't be bothered to go out and get the money and skillpoints to go and test options.

But once again, it seems more like pve gets the shaft in favor of pvp with the 'so build a or b can't be known from a glance'...

Duly Thankful · Apr 12, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Looking at Gaile's post, a couple of things strike me as a little worrying.

Quote:

Character level progression will be faster.
Skill points are acquired more quickly.

Am I wrong here, or does this mean that the PvE element of GW:F is being shrunk to push people through ascension to level 20 and PvP? Or is it simply that there is a higher level 20 content for PvE people (hopefully without any need to PvP at all)? I always thought that getting there was part of the fun and reaching level 20 was an achievement. Reducing the requirement isn't necessarily a good thing in my opinion, even though I do have some sympathy for all those who moan about having to get their 3rd/4th character through all the missions in GW:P - I enjoy it but I know a lot do not.

Quote:

This is an exciting thing, because when you run into someone, you won't be able to predict build from A to Z. What he chose may be different than what she selected. More variety, again, is a good thing.

Is this point aimed at PvP? I would expect an initial period of chaos as people experiment with new skills, but it should soon settle down to a general set of requirements, even if different to those needed now. For PvE, skillsets have never been particularly important (except for farming groups) as long as the PUG has a monk

Quote:

And for those interested in unlocking, each character can choose skills that were not unlocked on the last character, expanding options for the account as a whole.

I don't understand this at all. Head scratching time. Anyone care to have a shot at enlightening me?

DISCLAIMER :
I am not trying to flame, troll, hate, sneer or insult anybody, in particular Gaile, who in my opinion must have the patience of a saint and an amazing ability to put up with grief!

Thallandor · Apr 12, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

so the result will be that in stead of more diversity people will just look online what will be the skills needed to farm a certain area and unlock those. Just as they did when pvp had to unlock skills through pve to pvp successfully.

This will not further diversity, but have an averse effect and in stead further cookie cutter builds since the casual player won't be bothered to go out and get the money and skillpoints to go and test options.

But once again, it seems more like pve gets the shaft in favor of pvp with the 'so build a or b can't be known from a glance'...

QFT i know for one i wont want to gimp myself by picking the "wrong skills" for the area progression or so fore and will be looking for cookie cutter build for my assassin in this and other forums.

I will be honest and admit it, will you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duly Thankful

I don't understand this at all. Head scratching time. Anyone care to have a shot at enlightening me?

If i am not mistaken it simply means the same thing that is happening in GWP such that when you create a new character (PvE assumption) you can now select the skills you have not learned for your previous characters (same primary/secondary) which would be inturn unlocked for the PvP component.

Edit: didnt mean to double post sry.

CyberNigma · Apr 12, 2006, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Not sure what you where hoping for all new skills for free?

You know.. I really detest apologists. People like you make it an all or nothing proposal. If you really think the current way gives all the skills for free, you're completely clueless. Just because people are upset at some kind of change, doesn't mean they want to go the complete opposite way. Leaving it the same does not make it free. I don't think I read a single message before yours that said they wanted ArenaNet to make all of the skills free. Get a clue and quit trying to defend someone else a non-existent response. That's pretty pathetic.

I have taken no side on this issue as of yet. I will wait for release and judge it for myself. Regardless, people like the quotee are really good at throwing meaningless crap into an otherwise rational discussion.

dawnrain · Apr 12, 2006, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duly Thankful

I don't understand this at all. Head scratching time. Anyone care to have a shot at enlightening me?

When Prophecies was initially released if you played an [role-playing] elementalist up to Lion's Arch you were limited to being a fire ele because those were the skills available through quests and trainers. If you played a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) elementalist up to Lion's Arch you were still limited to being a fire ele. Subsequently the only PvP ele you could be was a fire ele.

The skill aquisition in Factions is such that your first ele can be fire in the beginning of the game. Your 2nd ele could be water in the beginning of the game, your 3rd could be air, etc.. Subsequently if you made a PvP ele you would not be limited as you were in Prophecies.

jgortner · Apr 12, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

I don't know if ANET reads these forums or not, but hoping that they do, I just wanted to voice another voice of BEING EXTREMELY UPSET BY THIS. Have to use skill points for most of the skills is very annoying. I really liked questing for skills as did everyone else.

ANET please change this... you may have an idea of what you want the game to do but please make the GAMERS happy... isn't that all that matters?

Mordakai · Apr 12, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

What we are doing is simply empowering you to make more choices. Rather than handing off the same two skills to every person for each quest, you get choices.

greater variety of skills offered earlier; offset by rewarding gold

Thanks for the response, Gaile!

This to me sounds very good, in fact, better than in Prophecy where everyone got the same crappy skills for free.

Basically, it sounds like we're getting Gold instead of Free Skills for some quests, which is not something I'm gonna complain about!

As long as there are skill point quests too, we should be golden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgortner

I don't know if ANET reads these forums or not...

Next time, read the thread before you post. If you did this, you would see Gaile has responded.

Theus · Apr 12, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hey, guys,

Just to make things a little more clear, and show you that what you're concerned about isn't a big deal. Honest! I'll try to make a spiffy bullet list. Oh dear heavens, I do love my bullet lists:

Character level progression will be faster.
Skill points are acquired more quickly.
What we are doing is simply empowering you to make more choices. Rather than handing off the same two skills to every person for each quest, you get choices.
There will be a greater variety of skills offered earlier in the game. We actually help to offset the cost of acquiring skills by rewarding you with an amount of gold that will help you towards the cost of acquiring the skills.
- This is an exciting thing, because when you run into someone, you won't be able to predict build from A to Z. What he chose may be different than what she selected. More variety, again, is a good thing.
- And for those interested in unlocking, each character can choose skills that were not unlocked on the last character, expanding options for the account as a whole.

There! Not only is that a vision of loveliness as a bullet list it's packed with good info, too!

Quoted for the newpage, and bolded for importance.